real vinyls /timecoded vinyls: differences of reactions

[emma]

Hello
I hope I am posting in the right place, the forum has changed a lot since last time I've visited it.
I've seen the French forum has been archived. So it's out of use?
So I'll do my best here with my English

It's more a general question, concerning timecode mixing and real vinyl mixing. I've been using Mixvibes Cross (timecoded vinyls) for years and I am very happy with it.
I never have any problem with it, when used in a "proper" DJ booth (clubs used with V.turntables, speakers not too close ...).
A few times, problems occured when the scene was not optimal
(big scenes with vibrations). Usually, some cracks/slow down/ (very) instable BPM, indicating a bad signal because of vibrations or larsen ... no real solution, a part from tring to improve the scene set up.

It's just one fact I would like to clarify for my curiosity:
I've observed in those "dangerous" scenes set-ups:
- real vinyl players have less or no problems.
- other timecoded-vinyl-systems players have equivalent or worse problems.
For me it's logical, because a timecoded system has to "work more": Treating 1st analogical, than digital data.
Real vinyls have only an analogical data to work on.

But one organizer guy told me that it is the opposite:
Usually vinyls timecoded players have less difficulties because the software "compensates" the chaotic signals.
Now I am not sure.
Can somebody explain me what the truth is?
Just willing to learn general facts about the system

[RoJeC]

There are quite some "transitions" involved in the chain from record to making the air vibrate by the speaker ..

Every piece of hardware and every environment may have some differences making the story true.

The first transition is mechanical to make the needle tip vibrate. The second is mechanical from tip to metal. Next is to make it electric. Then amplify to phono level. (at component level this is already simplified)

Every step is sensitive to external trouble, mostly interference of sound (resonance) and power (groundloop, electromagnetic by power cables).

When using tc there is only a relative small range of frequencies in use. When there is a problem it isn't with the "music" sound itself, whereas music records will make almost anything audible instantly, with tc you control the speed and direction of the "stream".

With respect to filtering it is more or less the same. A tc stream is expected to have a continuous sinus which can go faster and slower, but it always is within small limits. This makes it easier to filter problems, whereas in a live stream the filtering is way more difficult as the "hickups" may just as well be part of the music, so only extreems can be taken out.

So in most situations the story is right. There is a bigger chance of having problems with records due to wider range for interference and also less option to filter this out.

This is also applicable to why the best setting is to have line out from your tt. By this the signal is way stronger and this means that disturbances need to be more powerful to have an impact to the signal.
As every tt has its unique way of (pre)amplifying the choice of using the (a) build in pre amp or using an external pre amp is a discussion mostly depending on personal taste of sound...


And you noticed right that only the English forum remained. This appears to be the easiest way to help out everyone quickest as users around the world help each other out... This doesn't mean other languages aren't allowed to be used.. expressing yourself in your own language make it often even understandable for others.

Cordialement ,

[emma]

Thank you so much for your clear answer
I think I understand it a bit better now ...

So in fact, from the groove of a Real Record up to our ears, the path is full of things that may causes mecanical, electrical, physical ... potential hickups. The frequencies are directly related to the groove.

The Timecoded Record has only an action on the speed/direction of a stream of numerical data.
It has less "mechanical" frequencies because the groove is alway even. The frequencies are related to the numerical data from the track itself. There may be an influence but it is from "outside" (from soundsytem/scene vibration).

Did I get it right?

Can It be that sometimes a needle could make a difference?
I heard as well that TR need a better needle.
So maybe this could explain why I saw TR players having more problems.

A funny fact, is when I play in those "tricky scenes", when I make the soundcheck before, It always work out well.
Its only when I play for real, after about 20/30minutes, that the problems start (...) only one TT, the closer to a booth monitor.
Usually, the turntables are on the extreme sides, beaneath CDJs and controlers, because we are less to use them , ... so they are closer to the booth monitors.

My emergency procedure:
change needle/put more weight/reduce bass/lower volume if I can/desactivate booth monitor. Sometimes it helps a little, sometimes not. Is there something else I could do?

"This is also applicable to why the best setting is to have line out from your tt. By this the signal is way stronger and this means that disturbances need to be more powerful to have an impact to the signal. As every tt has its unique way of (pre)amplifying the choice of using the (a) build in pre amp or using an external pre amp is a discussion mostly depending on personal taste of sound..."
I am not sure I understand this part ... can I change someting? Can you reformulate?
Thx for your time and patience.

[RoJeC]

It's pretty close what you understand..

The tc signal is analogue, no bits and bytes. It's stereo where the left and right are slightly out of sync. By this the software understands the direction it's turning (back<>forth).
At 33rpm the signal is a 1300Hz for MV records. By changing rpm (scratching) you change the frequency which tells the software the speed. At each moment (1/x secs) there is only 1 frequency. The next moment the frequency is near the previous (or 0).

Resonance is the common problem. A booth speaker the common 'power' source. But basically anything that vibrates can cause problems.

A needle is designed to pick up vibration.. So there is some quality issue. Every needle will have a (slightly) different 'natural frequency'. This can explain why changing needles often works. especially when the same track is used for testing... however if resonance is the cause a different track may have different result.

Changing weight changes natural frequency (or better said changes amplitude of vibration by absorbing energy). So it helps but is not the best thing to do as this also influences pressure to the record and wear.
The theory is to isolate as much as you can first and next to reduce picking up energy.
Isolate (for testing) : use a havy table. put something in between tt and table (rubber, sandback, ...). Use sound absorption around the tt (till apps 10 cm above tt).

Reducing energy being pickup can be as simple as changing the position of the tt, e.g. to rotate some degrees. It may pick up less energy or less synced.


And why it happens after a while... every item/building starts vibrating when you put up the volume and people start dancing (or whatever they call there moves). Likely you can feel this when people move to the beat...

[daniel clark]

if you go to the manual ,,it explains time code ,,and set up ,, rojec is on point ,,but good too read it also ,,clears up any misunderstanding ,

[emma]

Hi All,
Thx for your answers.
I've always got some foam rubber squares, that are great for isolation. Unfortunately, this weekend I had another event, and for the 1st time ever. I had to give up playing after 20min trying.

1) Context: big sound, scene, certainly again some vibrations.
sound check: one TT signal fine, with signal 100% and stable, other signal really unstable (50%), trying to change needle didn't work, moving TT neither, didn't have the time to try foam rubber.
After 2 trax hardly mixed, impossible to load any trax on the bad signal TT side, and this is the 1st time I see it. Tried many times.
No track loading = no mixing. So I had to close and open again Mixvibes. Could load again 1 track on the bad side, but had the same problem immediatly after.
-->When signal is really bad, does it prevent Mixvibes from loading a tracK? (no problem on the fine TT side with track loading)

Later in the event was another guy playing with timecoded vinyls with another software, and he didn't have any problems. When I come back, I've tried immediately on my home set up. Worked perfectly well … perfect signals.

In the event, I did some of the plugin, but I didn't put the mass.
When back home, I've found a hook of one mass with cellotape around, on my soundcard. I think one mass was on the mixing table, the other on the soundcard.
At home, both are always on the mixing table, never on soundcard.
Maybe it broke during my playtime, maybe after, I don't know.
--> Could it be that a broken mass on the soundcard could create a very bad signal (problem 1) and that had in consequence no track loading (problem 2)?
Everybody told me it's my software, sawing the track loading bug + the fact the other guy had no problem at all.
I think no signal problem = no IT problem, but experiencing this "bug" for the 1st time, I don't know …

2) Trying to solve IT problem
Facing this new IT problem, I thought I'll try to make an update.
I've made updates on the MV on my PC, but for a while I was using my brother's MV on his Mac. So I didn't dare change it too much (not mine + not at ease with mac) Anyway this prehistoric version 1.7.0 was working perfectly well. But finally, I've made the update and I've got now both versions. Problem:
old version = works perfect. New version = left side works for TC, right side doesn't, stays in the "player" mode (cue .. )
Looks like there's a plugging mistake, but it can't be, because fine on the old version. It doesn't like having both versions installed?
I don't understand.

Concerning the user manual ….
Quick start guide is just what is is ...
A long time ago, I had a PDF in my favorites, but it has been apparently removed.
It's said to get it on the mixvibes selling site, but can't find it.
Where is it?

Sorry for my stupid questions, but I am losing all confidence in my little knowledge ...

[RoJeC]

Manual: open Cross > Menu > Help > Manual

Broken Mass could be the problem. If you can load a track manual than you know for sure the software didn't 'lock' the deck.
You should have only 1 Mass for your whole setup. It may follow several connectors, but should always end up being 1 ground level.

Also you can try using a different RCA cable. This may fix a broken cable (which may seem to work the next time as you bend it to store...) but may also help in case dust or hair in the connectors created a short cut.

You can run multiple versions of Cross. However 1.7 is really old. Somewhere in 2.x changes to the database structure were made that aren't backwards compatible.

For Mac using the latest version 3.3.11 is needed if you use El Capitan. Almost every change of OSX has had impact to performance of Cross.

[emma]

Manual: open Cross > Menu > Help > Manual
Ok, it wasn't so on the old version. But when I do this on the new version, I get a "whoops not found 404"

Broken Mass could be the problem. If you can load a track manual than you know for sure the software didn't 'lock' the deck.
So it does mean very bad signal can explain preventing from track loading? If I have again very bad signal, it may/will happen again?

You should have only 1 Mass for your whole setup. It may follow several connectors, but should always end up being 1 ground level.So that means: either both wires on the mixing table or both on soundcard. Table is better?

Also you can try using a different RCA cable. This may fix a broken cable (which may seem to work the next time as you bend it to store...) but may also help in case dust or hair in the connectors created a short cut.
I know the RCA from TT were not origins, but better ones.
The RCA from soundcard to table were mines, the usual ones.
Maybe something here, but would really do surprise me a lot
But I will keep some spare ones with me next time, just in case.

You can run multiple versions of Cross. However 1.7 is really old. Somewhere in 2.x changes to the database structure were made that aren't backwards compatible.
For Mac using the latest version 3.3.11 is needed if you use El Capitan. Almost every change of OSX has had impact to performance of Cross.
The Mac I use is very old as well (10.7.4, lion) but strictly only used for MV. I could install the 3.3.10 (64bits).
Still I don't understand why, on this version, I can play right side on TC, but not on left side ... What I think is weird, is that when I go on preferences to calibrate, I get signal on left side as well ... (the circle forms itself when I put the needle on TC vinyl). But can't have the "TC player"

So for the moment, I have an old MV on an old Mac, working perfectly at home, and 3/4 of the time outside ...

[jaymarkus]

when you hover with your mouse over the Waveform there must appear 1/2 und and an Arrow

you have to klick on one to activate timecode

the otherside do the same and click player 2