Recording Level Options under: Preferences - Recording

[iwaiwa]

I know there are more important priorities in the Cross Dev, but at some point, it would be helpful to have an option for Recording Level under Preferences - Recording

Currently it seems that the volume level of recordings are (at least) -12 db from the input signals (probably to allow sufficient "headroom" of the (combined) input signals from all channels and effects.

If you take a 1K 0db sine wave (test tone source wav file) and get everything "zeroed" on the gain / channel volume fader / and master volume to 0db and record it, the playback volume will be something like -12db. (I forget the exact level, but it's something very low like -12db).

I understand why that "headroom" decision was made, so that the "average user" doesn't distort / overload their DJ Mix recordings.

That's why the option of:

Recording Level (Headroom) could be:

-12db, -6db, 0db (with -12db as the Default).


The reason I bring this up is:

I "remake" all my music using the Cross DJ Sample Players, extracting loops and segments of songs. Plus sometimes changing the pitch and BPM of a song. Also, sometimes in the Sample Player, I set Pitch Mode to "none - disabled" so that the sample playback is always at it's original speed.

When I "remix" using Cross DJ and make "something new", the resultant Recording is very, very low in volume, and there is a lot of work involved to either "normalize" the volume of the recording, or navigate and change the gain in the browser (for each and every recording).

It would be great if we could set the default Gain level of Recordings.


Related questions:

1) If we take a sample and Record that sample in Cross (say everything at Zero levels with no eq, no fx), does the music stay at the exact same "quality" as the orig sample ? , or is it going through anything that is "resampling" / changing the original source material.

Thus, if I did this 6 times, the sixth version's sound "quality" will be (near-identical / identical) to the original sample ?

2) Is there any "data or quality loss" by currently recording at -12 db (of the orig signal) and then having to set the gain to 0 db ? Does this mess up the Signal to Noise ratio. Of course there is no analog tape hiss involved in digital, but all the audio hardware amps have to amplify the low signals to get it back to 0db and sometimes this brings up the "noise level".


Overall: Cross DJ already has the ability to create new music out of songs and samples. Sometimes it's fantastic to keep "recycling" Cross Recordings to keep making something new, or change pitch of a recording / sample and then record that.

I'm trying to see if we can get Cross DJ to the point where users can be creating and keep sampling / recording / re-using the recording (to make something new) and not have to deal with -12db (output) signal loss or any degradation in sound quality.

I can always try an inverse phase test to see if everything "cancels out" as a way to see if the signal stays the same during recordings or if there is discernible signal/quality degradation with Cross Recording.


I know you guys are busy with new versions / features / refinement of Cross. No rush, but eventually it would be fantastic to address the Recording Level Options and allow Cross to be used as a high-quality music "re-creation" tool.

Thanks again for all the fantastic work and excellent UI improvements.

Note how Traktor Remix decks aren't really taking off. Lots of engineering and technology that NI did on Remix Decks, but overall it gets limited and complicated very quickly. Mixvibes is so much cleaner and reliable (in my opinion).

[daniel clark]

a lot of good info posted here ,,nice to know if your findings on the 12 db difference is true and how hard would it be to implement this option in the software ,,also enjoy the use of the samople banks as a tool like your self ,,noticed the difference in sound /gain levels when playing back a recorded sample,,probly compensated with the sampple gain to match ,,this i think can become a problem ,,down the line as you layer samples on ,as a recording
i think the premis is to have a superior software to give the user options to use as he wish and fits his needs ,,
i have adjusted mix rec volumes on a second software to get levels at the point where i want them ,,but that the purpose of that software
other than complexitiy of implementing it and effect of stability of the software i think this would be a good feature

[sylMV]

That's pretty strange, no gain at all is applied for recording.
Are you sure of your findings?

[iwaiwa]

cool Daniel. Yes, you see exactly what I am talking about.

Syl, very simple: Try it yourself. I know it's surprising.

In theory, the design of MV Cross probably doesn't have any amp stages or attenuation in the bus structure to get to the (current) final Recording Output wav file (level of -12 db), but ...

... simply: give it a go. Take either a Song or Test Tone. Set the Fader Level and Gain so that everything is 0 db (or peaks at 0 db). Click the Record button for a bit. Locate the newly Recorded file and:

a) see what you have to go through to either drop that new Recording (of a played Sample or Song Segment) back into a Sample Player or a Track Deck.

b) play/trigger the Recording back (side by side with the orig source material)

c) it will be like -12 db in volume (compared to the source material's level).

d) for MV Cross Recordings, the Gain (in the Browser) does not have/show an initial value.

e) see what you have to go through to be able to make the Gain of the new recording 0 db. set the Gain level (in the browser) to 0 db.

f) now place the new recording in a Sample slot or Track Deck and it will play back at regular 0 db

one wonders if it's simply the new Recording "not having an autogain value", thus MV plays it back at -12 db (by default)

maybe it's as simple as "assigning Recordings an autogain value of 0db", but (currently) until the new Recording is Analyzed and/or Added to the Collection, I don't think there is a way to get a Gain value.

too many extra steps currently (for a creative workflow process).

one would hope this was (indeed) all "Unity"(level) -- Levels In (making a mix) equals Levels Out (printed recording levels). (Printed Recordings) Gain would be 0 db by default, not -12 by default.

Last point: it scares me that the actual wave recording file is being "printed" at -12 db signal and that adding Gain is amplifying a "low printed signal". (non-optimal).

Currently, the new recordings in a Wave Editor (such as Adobe Audition) show the printed Record level at -12 db (or less) and I need to run the Normalize feature of Adobe Audition or Sony Sound Forge on the new Recordings to bring them to "Normalized" or 0 db (optimized signal to noise) level.

Thanks Syl, as always, for taking note of this important part of the program that many don't know can be used for a lot lot lot more then simply recording of DJ Mixes / promos. MV Cross is a complete Music Re-Creation tool, but we need to resolve the default "print level" of recordings.

Throw the resultant of a Recorded Wave into a Wave Editor and you'll see how low the printed levels are by default.

One note: Mixvibes - Preferences - Recording - Recording Input - is set to: Mix (other choices: A B C D Aux).

Thanks Syl !!!!

Ira

[iwaiwa]

here's a Traktor Prefs reference on Headroom levels (which I think effects the Printed output Level of Mix Recordings in Traktor when everything else is set to "Unity") :

traktor prefs - mixer - level - headoom db options.JPG

[sylMV]

Syl, very simple: Try it yourself. I know it's surprising.

In theory, the design of MV Cross probably doesn't have any amp stages or attenuation in the bus structure to get to the (current) final Recording Output wav file (level of -12 db), but ...

... simply: give it a go. Take either a Song or Test Tone. Set the Fader Level and Gain so that everything is 0 db (or peaks at 0 db). Click the Record button for a bit. Locate the newly Recorded file and:

a) see what you have to go through to either drop that new Recording (of a played Sample or Song Segment) back into a Sample Player or a Track Deck.

b) play/trigger the Recording back (side by side with the orig source material)

c) it will be like -12 db in volume (compared to the source material's level).

d) for MV Cross Recordings, the Gain (in the Browser) does not have/show an initial value.

e) see what you have to go through to be able to make the Gain of the new recording 0 db. set the Gain level (in the browser) to 0 db.

f) now place the new recording in a Sample slot or Track Deck and it will play back at regular 0 db

one wonders if it's simply the new Recording "not having an autogain value", thus MV plays it back at -12 db (by default)

maybe it's as simple as "assigning Recordings an autogain value of 0db", but (currently) until the new Recording is Analyzed and/or Added to the Collection, I don't think there is a way to get a Gain value.

too many extra steps currently (for a creative workflow process).

one would hope this was (indeed) all "Unity"(level) -- Levels In (making a mix) equals Levels Out (printed recording levels). (Printed Recordings) Gain would be 0 db by default, not -12 by default.

Last point: it scares me that the actual wave recording file is being "printed" at -12 db signal and that adding Gain is amplifying a "low printed signal". (non-optimal).

Currently, the new recordings in a Wave Editor (such as Adobe Audition) show the printed Record level at -12 db (or less) and I need to run the Normalize feature of Adobe Audition or Sony Sound Forge on the new Recordings to bring them to "Normalized" or 0 db (optimized signal to noise) level.

Thanks Syl, as always, for taking note of this important part of the program that many don't know can be used for a lot lot lot more then simply recording of DJ Mixes / promos. MV Cross is a complete Music Re-Creation tool, but we need to resolve the default "print level" of recordings.

Throw the resultant of a Recorded Wave into a Wave Editor and you'll see how low the printed levels are by default.

One note: MixVibes - Preferences - Recording - Recording Input - is set to: Mix (other choices: A B C D Aux).

Thanks Syl !!!!

Ira

Ok, I guess I get it.

There's no gain at all applied on the recorded samples. There's no doubt on this. Just check it in an audio editor.

But I'm pretty sure, when you load a recorded track in Cross, the analysis gives (for odd reasons) the minimum gain which is -12dB. In the collection, display the Gain column and check the values.

[iwaiwa]

Thanks Syl, I think I figured it out:

I had the CrossFader Curve Preset on: "Constant Power" which has a significant "-db dip" in the "middle CrossFader position" (thus effecting the overall Mix Recording Volume by -9 to -12 db).

When I use the CrossFader Curve Preset of: "Mix", there is no middle "-db dip" and the OutPut Recording Level (Wave File) is the Same db as the Source Material (Wav file).

-- so thanks again on that! Issue resolved. I wonder what the Default CrossFader Curve is for Cross DJ when it is first installed ?

Anyway, as long as people know that a Mix Recording with CrossFader Curve Preset of "Constant Power" or "Constant Volume" will have a lower overall Recording Output level (when CrossFader is in the Middle position), and can use Curve Preset: "Mix" to resolve that (output db level) issue.

Thanks Syl !

iwaiwa