Cross, U-Mix Control Pro 2 and Master Volume issues

[Blackbrook]

Hi Ross,

as far as I know and what I have always taken for granted, zero dB is marked with the small lines in the master output as you can see in the attached picture.

The head room I was talking about is from the lines to max, this gives you flexibility in case some tracks are louder as expected.

I hope this helps,

Cheers,
Stefan

@everyone: if I am wrong feel free to correct me here, cheers!

zerodB_circle.png

[rhopkins]

Just getting more curious...
What OS do you have (maybe add in your signature).
What file type do you record.

Done

Do you have other audio programs active (also think of voip/skype).

No, nothing. My other soundcard isn't disabled when I mix though. I could try disabling it to see if it had an affect.

Do the 'other' players use a different sc or sc setting (W8 is pretty dynamic on this).

All other apps use a "Realtek High Definition Audio" device.

As mentioned best would be to start by using Audicity to see if there are differences in track volume. This shows if it is before or after recording volume issue.

Just so I'm clear, you're saying don't record in Cross but to record using Audacity during a mix and see if that affects the volume? I'll have to figure out how to set that up - would I just select the UMCP2 as the recording source in Audacity?

When faders are in 'normal' position (max or 0) and the Main is full open the recording should be line level, just as the source...

So this and Blackbrook's screenshot are interesting to me. Full as in turned all the way up? Generally, my Master Volume can only ever be turned about halfway before the warning light is triggered on the UMCP2.

Does that seem not normal?

If you make the 'track gain' field visible in the track rack you can quickly rule out wrong analysis gain results.. Just to be sure we get a better confirmation what it all isn't that causes it.

Not following this section - gain field is visible within the library. The gain dial is always centered. Generally, I don't touch them.

[RoJeC]

For recording the Main full open (or as close as possible as indeed shown in image) delivers line level, which is the level most recordings/tracks are. So if your Main is half, volume will be less...

Deck gain = in mixer section of Cross (12 o'clock = 0)

Track gain = in collection. This is what Gain analysis does. adjust track volume to be normalized for use in Cross. You can change this value at will (+/-12db). Editable via Info or by enable view of field in collection.

For Audacity I ment just to open the tracks in there. Both source as recorded track. Audacity will show you the volume by amplitude of the waves. This will tell you if the recording has a lower volume by itself.

If the recorded track has lower volume you can exclude all playback steps after this as causing the problem, narrowing it down to the recording of the mix.

I don't have the U-Mix Control Pro, but with my SC driver I can set the volume lower (suppose the 'volume panel' of U-Mix Control Pro has the same function). This is 'after' Main out of Cross. So you have more room in the Main volume fader... records louder while output doesn't go beyond the block...

[rhopkins]

For recording the Main full open (or as close as possible as indeed shown in image) delivers line level, which is the level most recordings/tracks are. So if your Main is half, volume will be less...

It's only at that level, sometimes a little higher, that the UMCP2 Master Volume warning light turns off. But with your explanation it makes sense that when I listen back to my recordings they seem quieter.

If I have the Master Volume turned up all the way then the light is always on. There's not any distortion though.

Am I just supposed to ignore that? I think I know the answer! I'm just a little confused - if this is "line level" (normal volume?) would you expect that I should always be able to have Master Volume set to full? Why would you want to be at lower than the normal volume?

Deck gain = in mixer section of Cross (12 o'clock = 0)

Track gain = in collection. This is what Gain analysis does. adjust track volume to be normalized for use in Cross. You can change this value at will (+/-12db). Editable via Info or by enable view of field in collection.

Just so I'm clear on this, the Read Gain On Track Load option adjusts gain of a track, even though there's no visual display of that? As in, a track has +2db but the gain dial remains in Cross at 12 o'clock.

For Audacity I ment just to open the tracks in there. Both source as recorded track. Audacity will show you the volume by amplitude of the waves. This will tell you if the recording has a lower volume by itself.

If the recorded track has lower volume you can exclude all playback steps after this as causing the problem, narrowing it down to the recording of the mix.

At full master volume both recording and track show the same amplitude of waves. But of course, turning Master Volume down to prevent the warning light results in the recording being...lower!

I don't have the U-Mix Control Pro, but with my SC driver I can set the volume lower (suppose the 'volume panel' of U-Mix Control Pro has the same function). This is 'after' Main out of Cross. So you have more room in the Main volume fader... records louder while output doesn't go beyond the block...

That's interesting, in the UMCP2 control panel both Input and Output are set to full. Still applicable if I'm using ASIO?

[rhopkins]

Really keen for clarification on this point:

Just so I'm clear on this, the Read Gain On Track Load option adjusts gain of a track, even though there's no visual display of that? As in, a track has +2db but the gain dial remains in Cross at 12 o'clock.

[RoJeC]

Track Gain is a track property, so all tracks when loaded have the same volume.

You refer to the Deck Gain fader I guess. This is to adjust volume of the deck.

If you enable 'Read Gain On Track Load' you basically do not have to use the deck gain. If you disable it you will have to manually adjust for a constant volume.

You can of course use deck gain for volume effects when having multiple tracks active.

[Blackbrook]

If you enable 'Read Gain On Track Load' you basically do not have to use the deck gain. If you disable it you will have to manually adjust for a constant volume.

In that case if I load the same track in both players the following should happen:

1) load track in deck A
2) turn deck gain to let's say +2dB
3) load track in deck B

Does gain on deck B change to +2dB?

Don't get me wrong, not trying to offend you, this is just as I am curious about this whole auto gain stuff.

Cheers

[daniel clark]

If you enable 'Read Gain On Track Load' you basically do not have to use the deck gain. If you disable it you will have to manually adjust for a constant volume.

In that case if I load the same track in both players the following should happen:

1) load track in deck A
2) turn deck gain to let's say +2dB
3) load track in deck B

Does gain on deck B change to +2dB?

Don't get me wrong, not trying to offend you, this is just as I am curious about this whole auto gain stuff.

Cheers

heres how i think the auto gain system works ,, when anylising a track for gain ,, the software adjust the tracks gain to match a certain level this value is kept in the track info ,,so the natraul level of the tracks are in line /similiar to each other ,,
depending how the auto clone feature works the same track loaded in the other deck seems to start and be in the same realitive state that the track was loaded in the first deck ,, so it should be at the level of deck gain as the first ,,
if you alter the track gain ,,then this alters the setting and should be inherent to the track/music file ,
kinda thinking that this is the accepted belief and understood ,, that the problem arises with software recorded tracks being lower in playback than the original track/music files and having issues with the playing of then with un recorded tracks ,,,maybe the auto gain/load at feature is not adjusting the recorded track to the same level as the originals due to some reason and will need to be altered at the track gain ,for the recording track ,,
use Cross to do basic samples thru the recording feature ,, then edit then with a sound /wav editor ,, found that even by normilizing the recorded track that Cross still adjust the finished product slightly lower than the original track that the sample was taking from ,,so before useing i adjust the track gain to fall in line with the sound /levels of the original track ,,not a perfect solution ,,but works ,,
so in playback weather it a original track or recorded track or sample there in line at same level for playback ,,
maybe missing the point of the posting ,, and just re interating the info as everybody understands it ,,

[rhopkins]

If you enable 'Read Gain On Track Load' you basically do not have to use the deck gain. If you disable it you will have to manually adjust for a constant volume.

In that case if I load the same track in both players the following should happen:

1) load track in deck A
2) turn deck gain to let's say +2dB
3) load track in deck B

Does gain on deck B change to +2dB?

Don't get me wrong, not trying to offend you, this is just as I am curious about this whole auto gain stuff.

Cheers

heres how i think the auto gain system works ,, when anylising a track for gain ,, the software adjust the tracks gain to match a certain level this value is kept in the track info ,,so the natraul level of the tracks are in line /similiar to each other ,,
depending how the auto clone feature works the same track loaded in the other deck seems to start and be in the same realitive state that the track was loaded in the first deck ,, so it should be at the level of deck gain as the first ,,
if you alter the track gain ,,then this alters the setting and should be inherent to the track/music file ,
kinda thinking that this is the accepted belief and understood ,, that the problem arises with software recorded tracks being lower in playback than the original track/music files and having issues with the playing of then with un recorded tracks ,,,maybe the auto gain/load at feature is not adjusting the recorded track to the same level as the originals due to some reason and will need to be altered at the track gain ,for the recording track ,,
use Cross to do basic samples thru the recording feature ,, then edit then with a sound /wav editor ,, found that even by normilizing the recorded track that Cross still adjust the finished product slightly lower than the original track that the sample was taking from ,,so before useing i adjust the track gain to fall in line with the sound /levels of the original track ,,not a perfect solution ,,but works ,,
so in playback weather it a original track or recorded track or sample there in line at same level for playback ,,
maybe missing the point of the posting ,, and just re interating the info as everybody understands it ,,

This was my understanding of how it worked. Assumes that each deck volume is at the same level too, obviously.

I think I'm over-thinking it...! Recorded a mix last night and was trying to keep the master volume at those 0dB markers. I was surprised that with read track gain on and deck volumes at the same level I had to adjust the master volume quite often.

I ended up with plenty of distortion in the recording, but didn't hear any whilst I was mixing

So I think Balckbrook's advice of recording lower and adjusting in Audacity afterwards is the best advice.

[daniel clark]

I'm not listening to my mixes in Cross :-)

I'm listening in iTunes or via Spotify as a local file. Compared to other tracks my recordings are significantly lower in volume, even bough the master volume during the recording was as high as it could be without triggering the warning light on my UMCP2.

does i tunes or spotify ,,adjust playing level ,,