[Tip] Debunking the myths behind sample rates

   forum closed (read only)
Forum rules
PLEASE.READ.FORUM.RULES.SUPPORT.UPDATE


FORUM CLOSED PLEASE POST in NEW TECHNICAL FORUMS BY SOFTWARE FAMILY

* Register your software (User Control Panel > Profile > Serial Number)
* Go to the download center and install the latest versions of software and drivers
* Use the search tool to look into topics
* Check the FAQs to be sure your problem hasn't been solved already
* Write in concise and precise ENGLISH Thank you.

[Tip] Debunking the myths behind sample rates

Postby Stealthii on 03 Feb 2010, 19:46

I find myself surrounded by people that accept that 44100hz is the best sample rate to have their sound card on, as their music itself has a sample rate of 44100hz, so they are 'bit-matched' and therefore play with the clearest clarity. I am writing this tip today to debunk this myth, as I find it far from the truth, and I shall try to use examples to back up my reasoning.

For my examples, audio is generally recorded at 44100hz, which is 44100 samples per second. If we play back a 44100hz track at 44100hz, it's

44100 / 44100 = 1 = 100% accuracy

Using the lowest common multiple, we can deduce that a double frequency rate is also 100% accurate.

44100 / 88200 = 0.5 | (0.5 / 0.5) = 1 = 100% accuracy

Don't get me wrong, bit-matched playback is indeed the best possible way to play back your music (if your sound card supports it). As most sound cards sample and mix sound at 48000hz, a track at 44100hz is upsampled.

44100 / 48000 = 0.91875 = ~92% accuracy

It should make sense to use 44100 when DJing using Cross or Producer, right? But there's key points being missed here. You are not playing back your audio when DJing at exactly 44100hz per second, are you? If any of you use the pitch control at all, you'll know that your music is faster or slower than normal. You can assume that the track is a standard CD audio at a rate of 44100hz. When playing at 100% speed, pitch 0.0%, this is indeed, 44100 samples per second.

So let's say the track needs sped up a bit, after all we're beat-matching here, and I pop up the pitch control to +2.4%. We're now playing the track at 102.4%. You consider the rate was 44100 samples a second, however we've sped the track up now, so obviously the sample rate has sped up a bit.

44100 * 102.4% = 45158.4hz (samples per second)

The track is a bit faster, right? Instead of 44100 samples, we are pushing just under 45200 samples a second. Not a massive increase, but neither was the pitch, was it? let's say we increase the pitch of a track to +7.8%, which doesn't seem uncommon in some forms of electronic music.

44100 * 107.8% = 47539.8hz (samples per second)

Suddenly we're verging on 48000hz, which as we know is a normal sample rate we can choose on our cards. However we're arrogant and have set 44100hz as the output frequency. If you know anything about D/A conversion, this frequency clock is set in stone, and the audio is sampled at 41000hz and converted to analogue audio.

Our track has not been resampled, it is simply playing at a faster sample rate, which we'll mark down as 47500, and we are RESAMPLING this to 44100. As you can see, we have reduced the effective sample rate and lowered the quality. By a 3439.8 sample decrease per second, the overall accuracy is 92.76%.

However, say we set the sample rate to 48000hz, and the same thing happened. It has been upsampled, by a percentage of roughly 1%, and we have a 460.2 sample increase, having an overall accuracy of 99.04%.

Ok, so if we look at the middle value, which is 46050hz, which is roughly 4.4% faster than 44100hz, you might say 'well if my pitch control doesn't go above 4.4% usually, surely 44100hz is the better sample rate?' I'll mention a few points here.

    - High frequencies are what matters most at these differences in sample rates. I could send a sub-woofer audio at a resampled rate of 8000hz and you wouldn't notice hardly any difference compared to 44100hz.

    - You're using timecode. Even worse, if you're using vinyls, the timecode fluctuates at a tiny rate and is not constant, so the 44100hz you're playing at pitch 0% will fluctuate up and down slightly.

    - Audio processing happens. Gain control, internal equalizer, VST effects, all manipulate the audio in some form.

Anyway listener tests are better than figures. Resample a track to 66150hz or 48000hz and tell me you can tell a difference from 44100. Here's a key hint: When mixing in Mixvibes using 48000 compared to 44100, you should hear a marked increase in quality on the high frequencies when pitching up, and no difference at any other time. Oversampling rather than undersampling is better for higher frequencies. With 44100hz you are almost always undersampling.

If your sound card supports 88200hz or 96000hz (double frequencies of the above) and your computer doesn't lag behind when using them, use them. As they double the sample rate, the difference in sample rates from the track to the output has twice the effective accuracy. It also halves the latency. Using the MacBook Pro's on-board audio I can manage 2.0ms latency with 96khz with a tiny blip every 30 seconds or so. 4.0ms and above I don't notice any blips at all.

If you're using line-in or thru mode as well, you're handling analogue audio there. No matter what rate you think anything is, it's real sound and a higher frequency for A/D/A conversion is gonna sound better no matter what. Especially for turntablists, there's a considerable difference between 44100 and 48000 on a non-preamped phono input regarding high freqs.

I hope this has made it clearer for some people. Bit-matched playback is true if the recording is being fed directly to the sound interface, but with what DJs do to tracks these days, this is never the case. ;)
3-hour radio show, Mixvibes Cross only!
http://soundcloud.com/stealthii/isa3
MacBook Pro 13" Summer-2011 16GB RAM, Vertex-III SSD
OSX 10.7.3
Ecler Evo 5 Mixer
Technics 1210MK5 x2
Ortofon S-120 OM carts x2
Image
User avatar
Stealthii
 
Posts: 202
Joined: 24 Nov 2009, 22:56
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland


Re: [Tip] Debunking the myths behind sample rates

Postby Blackbrook on 03 Feb 2010, 20:25

Stealthii wrote:So let's say the track needs sped up a bit, after all we're beat-matching here, and I pop up the pitch control to +2.4%. We're now playing the track at 102.4%. You consider the rate was 44100 samples a second, however we've sped the track up now, so obviously the sample rate has sped up a bit.

44100 * 102.4% = 45158.4hz (samples per second)

The track is a bit faster, right? Instead of 44100 samples, we are pushing just under 45200 samples a second. Not a massive increase, but neither was the pitch, was it? let's say we increase the pitch of a track to +7.8%, which doesn't seem uncommon in some forms of electronic music.

44100 * 107.8% = 47539.8hz (samples per second)


Hi Stealthii,

thanks a lot for your introduction into signal analysis! But I have one question. I learned at university that if you play a track faster the frequency is smaller and inverse that if you play a track slower the frequency is bigger. Right?
If this is true you can argue that there are of course some people pitching minus 4% or more, so your way of the argumentation is right again. But in the other way 44.100Hz are more than enough then.
I can be wrong, for shure, and if so please correct me!

I will try to mix with 48.000Hz at my next sessions and try what my mind says ;)

Thanks a lot Stealthii!!!

Greetings,

Steve
Viele Grüße,
Cheers,
A plus,
Steve

Image
Winner Mixvibes 10 years DJ contest 2009


Blackbrook
 
Posts: 4417
Joined: 25 Dec 2007, 14:33


Re: [Tip] Debunking the myths behind sample rates

Postby UncleVibes on 03 Feb 2010, 20:41

There is also More signal quality on thé vinyl inputs when you use High frequencies
UncleVibes
 
Posts: 10254
Joined: 22 Sep 2003, 14:36


Re: [Tip] Debunking the myths behind sample rates

Postby Stealthii on 03 Feb 2010, 21:59

Blackbrook wrote:I learned at university that if you play a track faster the frequency is smaller and inverse that if you play a track slower the frequency is bigger. Right?

I'm not sure how this works out, but if a track has 44100 samples a second, and you play it at twice that rate (88200 samples a second), it's twice as fast.

I'm not sure on timecode analysis, but I'd imagine it could theoretically be clearer at higher frequencies. The timecode signal isn't at a rate where it would benefit, but real vinyl would (as I mentioned above) and perhaps the clarity of the timecode signal (so less errors, or better pickup of backspins on standard stylii)
3-hour radio show, Mixvibes Cross only!
http://soundcloud.com/stealthii/isa3
MacBook Pro 13" Summer-2011 16GB RAM, Vertex-III SSD
OSX 10.7.3
Ecler Evo 5 Mixer
Technics 1210MK5 x2
Ortofon S-120 OM carts x2
Image
User avatar
Stealthii
 
Posts: 202
Joined: 24 Nov 2009, 22:56
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland


Re: [Tip] Debunking the myths behind sample rates

Postby UncleVibes on 04 Feb 2010, 00:38

I'm not sure on timecode analysis, but I'd imagine it could theoretically be clearer at higher frequencies. The timecode signal isn't at a rate where it would benefit, but real vinyl would (as I mentioned above) and perhaps the clarity of the timecode signal (so less errors, or better pickup of backspins on standard stylii)
Let me give you some old Mixvibes experience. When we launch DVS in 2004 we think that a RIAA soft preamp can do the job with an average sound card in multi audio cards mode. The first setup was a joke. In the Musikmesse in Frankfurt we had a very small booth a table, a computer, 2 turntables & one ESI sound Card. It was more than funny that the Technics team visit us with Mr President of the company.
A great honor for the smallest & cheapest booth of the new born Invibes official name of the company who develops Mixvibes.
The Japanese team took their camera & checked under the table if we didn't put some secret hardware box like some competitors...
No special hardware but still a lot of work to do.
As most sound cards in 2004 have no RIAA preamp like the U46MK2 today, we find that sampling the inputs with high sample rate is the best way to decode the horrible & dusty data sound made by the time code records.
I have since a Roland Edirol FA 101. This sound card works in harmony with Mv7 with a sample-rate of 88.2 or 96 khz.
After some time code nightmare with V1 Records, DVS is optimized year after years (with free updates :biggrin: ) to work with V2 records, optimized to use less time of CPU with the internal routine checking the inputs of the sound card & optimized to work with any sound card at 44.1 khz. A lot of maths, a lot of time spent for very short scripts making all the difference.
Developers are still improving in DVS latency with any sound card by using the newest DirectX audio mode in Vista & very well in Windows 7 (multi-audio mode on DVS)
U46MK2 sound card don't reach a frequency higher than 48 khz.
High sample rate frequencies means most the time expensive sound cards. But for a musician it's a must.
UncleVibes
 
Posts: 10254
Joined: 22 Sep 2003, 14:36


Re: [Tip] Debunking the myths behind sample rates

Postby Support@MixVibes on 04 Feb 2010, 11:47

On a vinyl side, more data samples = more accurate positioning BUT more stress for the cpu.
User avatar
Support@MixVibes
 


Re: [Tip] Debunking the myths behind sample rates

Postby UncleVibes on 04 Feb 2010, 11:52

On a vinyl side, more data samples = more accurate positioning BUT more stress for the cpu.


This is true for 2004 computers not for 2010 computers... I don't use more than 30% of the CPU.
UncleVibes
 
Posts: 10254
Joined: 22 Sep 2003, 14:36


Re: [Tip] Debunking the myths behind sample rates

Postby polocorp on 04 Feb 2010, 12:25

Uncle, you play at 96kHz on your Edirol FA-101, right ???
MixVibes PRO DJ TEAM

MixVibes Cross 2
MacBook PRO
CDJ-2000
DJM-800

http://polocorp.blogspot.com
http://Facebook.com/polocorp.music
User avatar
polocorp
 
Posts: 2141
Joined: 04 Sep 2006, 17:29
Location: Paris


Re: [Tip] Debunking the myths behind sample rates

Postby UncleVibes on 04 Feb 2010, 12:27

Uncel, you play at 96kHz on your Edirol FA-101, right ???


Most of the time I use 96 KHZ or 88.2
UncleVibes
 
Posts: 10254
Joined: 22 Sep 2003, 14:36


Re: [Tip] Debunking the myths behind sample rates

Postby polocorp on 04 Feb 2010, 12:28

I'm considering bumping up to 48kHz this week end for a start... Thanks for the topic Stealthii :mrgreen:
MixVibes PRO DJ TEAM

MixVibes Cross 2
MacBook PRO
CDJ-2000
DJM-800

http://polocorp.blogspot.com
http://Facebook.com/polocorp.music
User avatar
polocorp
 
Posts: 2141
Joined: 04 Sep 2006, 17:29
Location: Paris


Next

Return to Tips & Tutorials




Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Board index

 
 
   
 
© 2014 Mixvibes
 
cron